The Good Loaf

(narrator) Join celebrity chefs Carla Hall, Vivian Howard, Sara Moulton, and Marcus Samuelsson as they savor a vintage French Chef episode and dish it up with Julia Child.

(upbeat music) ♪ ♪ I went to three different markets to find unsliced sandwich bread, and I couldn't find any.

That's the bread dilemma we face unless we make our own.

And here it is!

The good loaf: Pain de mie and raisin bread, today, on The French Chef.

(lively music) I went to France not to cook.

I did not cook, but I started cooking when I was there just to say thank you to people who were allowing me to surf on their couches.

And then I picked up one of Julia's books, -and that's how I started.

-You got started.

-Yeah.

-Wow.

I was very lucky to work with her in the late '70s and then at GMA.

And then I got to do a special on her before she died, which was really nice.

We had these wonderful dinner parties.

A bunch of us would be there.

And in the middle of the whole thing, when we were cooking, we'd all prep together... -Nice.

-...she'd turn to us and say, "Aren't we having so much fun?"

(Julia) Welcome to The French Chef.

I'm Julia Child.

These two loaves are pain de mie and this is a raisin bread loaf.

For years, I've been hiding behind the fact that I never knew Julia Child.

But having taken this deep dive, I'm--I hate that I have gone 41 years of my life and not watched this magnificent teacher.

And she's also, like, really freaking funny.

Restauranting, cooking was always-- was very male-dominated.

And we all know that that wasn't-- that wasn't reality.

And Julia, for me, really sets, like, you know, of course, women are in the center of cooking and of course, ladies can do it too and better.

(Julia) And pain de mie is French sandwich bread.

And "pain" means " bread," and "mie" means "crumb."

I'm gonna slice open this bread and see how it is.

She's right about the crumb, great shot.

(Carla) It's beautiful.

Beautiful shot.

(Julia Child) ...bread with body that really tastes good and it holds its shape for sandwiches.

And it's made very much like French bread, regular, the long-loaf French bread which is made out of flour, water, yeast, and salt.

And pain de mie is made out of flour, milk, yeast, salt, and a little bit of butter.

-And it's the same... -Do you think she ever cooked without butter?

(Vivian) I don't think so.

I don't think she ever points without a knife either.

(Julia) So, here we go.

And the technique is much the same as what we've already done.

We want one pound of flour and that's about three and a half cups.

(Carla) Even the measuring that she's doing is so great.

(Sara) And that she's making a complete mess the whole time.

-Bang, yes.

-No sifting is necessary.

That is the mixture until the butter goes in.

And we can do it either by hand or by machine.

And I'm going to do it by hand first -and then by machine.

-But I love that she used the side by side.

(Sara) Yeah.

And, again, I think that's to make it more accessible.

You know, "If you have one of these fancy machines, you too can do it on the machine."

(Julia) Turn it out onto the working surface, and then you want to let it rest.

And the reason you want to let it rest is so that it can... (Vivian) She's making it look very approachable.

-Like, Tuesday afternoon.

-...see what it's like.

And you'll notice in this dough-making we have quite a bit of resting, and it makes all the difference.

And when you're doing it in a machine, you must have a machine... (Marcus) The hair is definitely more done.

Yeah, yeah, it's, like, that ain't moving.

-She's got hairspray in there.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(Julia) It's very convenient to do things by machine, particularly if you're gonna double -or triple a recipe.

-I don't know if anyone has talked about this, but it can be a whole segment about Julia's bling, can you see, like, she's got big earrings, she got, you know, nice little rings on, and she doesn't take them off for baking as normally people do.

I just love the fact that she's, like, she's established at this point.

(Vivian) She's on TV, she's got that look honed.

(Marcus) Yeah.

(whirring) (Vivian) And just flour just going all over the place.

(Carla) And I love that she's saying right now, "Don't worry about making a mess."

(Sara) And she sure is making a mess, isn't she?

(Carla) Yeah, but I love that.

And you can--and that shot is really great 'cause you see... (Sara) The dough going, yeah, onto the hook.

(Julia) ...should rest two or three minutes.

Now we're gonna start kneading the dough by hand.

And when you knead, you want some kind of a scraper, like that, or a stiff spatula, or just buy a painter's spatula at a hardware store.

(Vivian) Just go to the hardware store, Marcus.

(Marcus) That's great advice, though.

(Julia) ...off your surface with.

(Vivian) Yeah, I hate that we today, like, think that if we don't have the specific, like, piece of equipment, we can't do the task.

But, like, she's empowering you.

(Julia) Use your left hand to keep that clean, and then begin working things with your right hand.

And as soon as it begins getting enough body, you just push it.

-There you go.

-Slap it down and turn it over.

(Vivian) Slap it down.

(Julia) What you're trying to do... (Sara) You're like, "Oh, that is sort of fun."

(Carla) "Oh, this isn't precious, this isn't precious!"

(Julia) ...completely mixed up.

And particularly, what you're trying to do is to get the gluten molecules to join... (Carla) This is a great thing to do if you're not in a good mood.

(Sara) No!

The kids have really made you mad, or you had a bad day at the office, you come in and throw around some dough.

(Julia) And this dough is gonna remain quite sticky, but we just knead vigorously until it becomes elastic.

You're wanting to get the lumps out of the dough.

It's beginning to smooth out a little bit.

Can you see that?

And it's beginning to draw back.

(Carla) I think it's-- it's the ridiculous, but she is actually showing you the texture of the dough, which is so beautiful.

(Sara) That is why, I mean, I think you feel the same way, after watching this, it's like, "I might have to make that."

(Carla) I was thinking the very same thing!

-I know.

-And as I feel it, I don't feel any lumps in it.

(Vivian) I can't feel it, but I can--I can feel it.

(Marcus) You can feel it, absolutely.

And so we'll go back to the mixer.

And that's rested two or three minutes, so you just knead some more.

But what you notice by the resting for two or three minutes is that-- is that the kneading immediately becomes much easier.

-Wow.

-This is already... (Carla) 'Cause the glutens rest, and then you... (Sara) And two or three minutes is so interesting.

You wouldn't think that it would in two or three minutes.

And then after these two-- the restings of these two doughs, they're going to have butter kneaded into them.

(Carla) It's always--this is so classic to working live.

Yeah, just-- -Or live to tape.

-Yes.

(Vivian) I love that she's struggling with that.

(Marcus) We're all struggling with that.

(Carla) So this moment right here where she's trying to get the attachment on and she switches to talk about something else, which is so--she's learned that.

Now you don't get flustered by that.

...if you're gonna make a business of making bread, or if you have to make a whole lot of loaves of bread for a party, it's very nice to be able to make a double mix very quickly as you can in the machine.

(Vivian) That sink would have come in handy there, you know?

Some running water on the set.

(Carla) But look how the dough has changed after that resting.

(Julia) It's had a little bit of a rest and has become much smoother.

And it also isn't sticking to my hand.

And this is ready to have the butter... (Vivian) You know, I do think that I could teach her one thing.

(Marcus) Oh!

How would you work that in?

(Vivian) I wouldn't.

I'm just telling you.

-Yeah, okay, you can tell me.

-So, she needs to put a damp towel underneath that surface so it doesn't slide around.

(Julia) And this has to be cold but malleable.

-Oh!

-Wow!

(Julia) Beat it up.

(Marcus) I think... Did you see that coming?

(Carla) This is such a great tip, even if you're making cookies.

Not even just for the bread, to sort of knead the butter and keep it cold.

And that paint spatula... -I know!

Very good.

-Very effective!

(Sara) I think we have to go out and get one, don't you?

-Right?

-Yeah.

(Julia) You may well ask, "Why don't we use softened butter already rather than having to go into this kind of a-- kind of a do with cold butter?"

And the reason is, if you have very soft butter, you're going to have to knead it into your dough, and you'll find that it's very difficult to get it in.

It'll stay oily and be-- It just won't absorb well.

If we put a little bit of the butter in first like that and then with the heel of your hand begin squishing it around.

(Carla) The way that she's cooking, I feel that she-- you can feel her 60-- the wisdom of a 63-year-old, but she also has the energy of someone much younger.

(Sara) Oh, yeah.

Absolutely.

(Julia) The sandwich bread is the gateway to... (Sara) I love this, the gateway to brioche.

-Yes!

-Oh, no!

(Julia) If you want some really messy dough, you start adding three times as much butter as this to a dough.

What I love about this recipe and so much of her cooking is that it shows that if you're gonna make something great, you can't cut corners.

You can't just make it in 20 minutes.

(Julia) It all miraculously absorbs.

There, it's looking ropy, messy.

(Sara) This is pretty mesmerizing if you think about it.

(Carla) Yes!

It is.

And if it happens to be a terribly hot day and the butter beg-- (Carla) People want to know about time, so she's not giving you a time.

She's telling you what to look for.

(Sara) What it should feel like, what it should look like.

(Carla) Like, the butter will come off the surface.

-Clean the surface.

-At this point now, this is just about it.

Let it again rest-- that's almost cleaning it off my hand-- rest for two or three minutes, and then you'll find it'll-- the rest of it will go in very easily.

Now here's our four tablespoons of butter in the machine.

(whirring) And just put that in by bits.

There aren't any rules for how to make bread... (Sara) No, there is no rule because she just decided to do this.

Nobody has ever done this before, I don't think, taking this French pain de mie and done it in a machine.

(Julia) This method, I found, following the hand method seems to work very well.

But when you're doing it by machine, be sure that you stand right over it.

(Carla) To go from what looked like a lot of work to now the machine being automated, which is not so much work, so you should do it.

(Sara) You have no excuses, not one.

Unfortunately, quite a bit of the bread in France has gone off just because they over-knead 'cause it makes the bread rise faster and then, it doesn't have the texture that it should.

So stand right over it.

(Vivian) She's critiquing all the bread in France.

(Marcus) No, I love that, throw some shade to France.

Yeah, I love it.

When this has about absorbed, you can add raisins if you're going to make raisin bread.

And these are currant raisins.

That means they're just little tiny black seasoned-- seedless raisins, and they're called "currants."

(Marcus) Oh, yes!

That is my favorite move so far.

With that messy hand, go in the raisins.

(Julia) I'm gonna put in-- put in about one to one and a half cups.

(whirring) Now, those are in nicely.

We will reveal what it looks like.

Lots of little black flies.

(Carla) When she says they look like black flies.

(Sara) No, but she just--she calls it for what it is.

That's her sense of humor.

(Carla) Well, why not ants?

(Julia) So there are those raisins.

As you can see, the butter... ...the butter has nicely absorbed.

And now here's our hand dough.

I don't want to get any raisins into that.

-Look how clean she is.

-Yeah.

I know, there's not even any flour on her apron.

-No.

-Now that... See, that has really... That smoothed out and looks just fine.

When the butter-- after the butter goes in, it looks rather puffy and nice.

And now this is to go into a clean bowl and rise.

And be covered with plastic and a bath towel.

And going to do the same with the raisin bread.

Into a clean bowl.

If you put it into a dirty bowl, they might crust over.

And as you'll notice, that dough is still... -She's cleaning as she goes.

-She's cleaning as she goes.

And during its risings, it changes--it changes from stickiness.

That's because the risings give it texture.

And this is going to have three rises.

It has two rises in the bowl and then one rise in a pan just before baking.

And it's this--and these are to be long, slow rises, and that's what gives bread-- the bread a beautiful texture and flavor.

'Cause all of these French doughs are very much the same, soft.

That one has risen up to that point.

(Marcus) Well, I'm so impressed with her range, right, because we go from how to roast chickens, right, and we learn how to tie chickens, to maybe how to make French bread.

And not just one but two, and this is a process of nine hours.

And she does it almost perfect, but she's also not afraid of her imperfection, and I think that's really cool.

(Julia) ...and fold it again into three.

And put it into a clean bowl.

That should be a clean bowl.

And cover it, and let it have its second rise.

Here it is, its second rise, and it has quite a different quality now.

The second rise is not quite triple.

But... And this is--takes about an hour and a half to two hours, again, at 75 degrees.

But as you notice, it has... -That's a beautiful dough.

-That is.

(Julia) And what you can delay.

Now this is quite a long process, all the rising that you'll have to do.

(Sara) She never did a retake, even though we'd made three times backup for every part of everything.

She was that good by the time I got to her in 1979.

(Carla) So what happened to that food?

-We ate it.

-Okay, nice.

(Sara) We'd sit down and have lunch... -I love that.

-...with wine.

Things moved very slowly in the afternoons.

(Julia) The French pan is a pan with a cover that holds the... Then the cover holds the bread down here.

It goes on like that.

It holds the bread down so that the bread is risen to a certain point.

Then, you put the cover on and bake it.

And the cover just holds it so that you get this rectangular shape.

(Carla) But I love that she gives some of the culture, the French culture, again, through her show and sharing.

(Julia) You can sometimes see pans like this around, but if you don't have one, don't be discouraged because you can use an ordinary pan and cover it... (Vivian) That's one of my favorite things that I see her do is, like, "This is the piece of equipment that I would use, but if you don't have it, you can use this," because that--that's so important.

(Julia) And then turn it over, and then I'm sealing those edges.

And then, turn it over again and make a trench down the center, and turn it over again.

What we're trying to do is to make a nice, smooth top.

That isn't a smooth top.

(laughing) (Sara) There she is calling a spade a spade.

(Carla) She's like, "Well, that's not a smooth top."

(Sara) And, then, I think she finally decides, "What the heck, I've got to get it in the pan," so she just proceeds anyway.

-Pretty smooth.

-Pretty smooth.

(Julia) Take your hands and push it together.

You want to have it quite even.

And then turn it over on the other side and pinch the edges together.

This is again, is that idea of surface tension.

There, then it goes smooth side up into the pan.

And the pan should be not quite half full if you're going to bake it covered.

And press it down with your knuckles.

(Carla) Even that, that little bit, again, it makes it not so precious in the way that she is knuckling it.

It's, like, it's not precious.

(Julia) And this is to rise, then, and again, at 75 degrees.

Now--oh.

(Sara) "Which swap am I looking for?"

Raisin bread.

If you had finished the second rise in the refrigerator overnight, which you could perfectly well do, the bread would be chilled so that it would take longer to rise in the pan.

(Carla) And I think what I love that she did-- she did two breads 'cause you see her repeating certain things.

(Sara) Yeah, you're right, you're right.

You learn much better when you see it -over and over again.

-Patting it out and creating surface tension.

So, folding it over, packing it out again.

Here is the ready-risen pain de mie.

This has actually risen a little bit too much.

When you do it, watch it a little more closely, and let it rise till it's about an inch from the top.

(Sara) It's good, too, that she says, "When you do it, do it better," instead of pretending this is the way -it's supposed to look.

-Yes, yes.

(Julia) Buttered foil on the top of it.

And then, you put any kind of a cover on, like a... That's just an old cookie sheet, and then any kind of a weight, like a brick or an iron.

-Look at this.

-I love this.

Who has one of those just sitting around?

(Carla) I do.

I have my grandmother's, and I'm gonna use it to do this.

I'm not gonna buy that darn pan.

...into a 435-degree oven.

That would be between 425 and 450.

And set your timer for 35 to 40 minutes.

It depends very much on the shape of your pan.

And it's in the middle or lower-middle level.

And you don't want to look at it for 35 minutes because if it hasn't really quite risen, you might take the weight off and it would still be rising -and go "foom!"

-"Foom!"

(Julia) ...and that would be rather fun to see, I think.

(Carla) She said, "Rather fun to see."

(Julia) ...raisin bread.

And this one suffered a little bit 'cause I had a top on it with an elastic around it and I put the elastic around it, it hurt that end.

But I don't think that's gonna make very much difference.

This, again, goes into the 435-degree oven, and it doesn't have any topping at all, any glaze.

It just bakes as is.

It's really about 40 minutes.

Now, when it's ready, here's how it looks.

(Vivian) She was, I guess, the first person to-- I guess she invented the magic of television.

Like, this goes in the oven and it takes 35 minutes, then, magically, this comes out and it's ready.

(Julia) ...fill it and then take her out.

And it should thump.

You hear that little thumping noise?

(Carla) I love the thumping.

-Again, tactile clues.

-Sound, too.

(Carla) And this I didn't know about, on its side.

-Yeah.

-Burnt raisins on top which just taste rather burnt and hard, and just take them off 'cause they're not very good.

Now I'm gonna get the other bread.

And this one has some floor tiles on it to keep it down.

(oven door closing) (clanging) There's your cover off.

(clanging) And out.

(Sara) Hey, listen, this is a nightmare of a show with all those risings, to end up with the exact moment that it would all be done to show?

Yikes.

(Carla) This thumping is so nice.

(Vivian) She likes to pat her food.

(Marcus) That's good, though, that's good.

Or put it back in the oven a few more minutes.

Then, let it cool.

I think it's best to cool it on its side 'cause it gets more air around.

And it's gonna taste much better if it's cooled-- really completely cooled down, although it's always exciting to eat it hot from the oven.

(Sara) I love that.

"It's always exciting to eat it hot from the oven."

-Ain't that the truth?

-But don't!

I know.

And this keeps very well when it's completely cool.

Wrap it airtight and refrigerate it or freeze it.

It freezes perfectly, also.

And if you're going to use it for sandwiches, it's gonna cut much better if you keep it in the refrigerator for about two days before slicing it.

And also, I think that it has a better flavor after it has melded a little bit for about at least a day, and I'm gonna show you... (Marcus) I love that advice 'cause we always obsess, it has to be fresh, straight out of the oven, but she's telling you, Julia is telling us, it should sit in the refrigerator for two days.

-For two days.

-And make a nice slice of that.

And what is wonderful about this, this is fairly fresh, but even so, it slices very thinly.

-And here is the... -This is hilarious.

Wait.

Oh, oh, wait.

(Julia) It's a little too thin.

(Carla) I love that she calls it out, a little too thin.

(Julia) But how wonderful to have complete control over the thickness of your slice of bread.

It makes marvelous, absolutely marvelous toast.

And it's just so good in itself that it makes perfectly beautiful just plain bread-and-butter sandwiches.

And when you want to make fancy canapés like this, pain de mie is the good loaf!

So that's all for today on The French Chef.

This is Julia Child.

-Bon appétit!

-Bon appétit!

-Yay!

-I'm so happy.

Oh my God.

(Sara) I love it!

She does these very complicated shows.

I mean, she says, "Oh, it's so easy!"

No, it wasn't.

I mean, you know, after 500 steps, you're like, "I don't think so."

But yet, it was so much fun.

-It was contagious.

-Right.

(Vivian) Her accent is so mesmerizing.

It's like she's almost singing.

-It's a high pitch.

-Yeah, I mean, I would--I would try to emulate it, but I'd be very embarrassed.

(Marcus) I'm not doing it, you do not want a Swediopian twist on that.

-You got to leave that alone.

-Yeah.